NÖms 2012

Also, nachdem Erich ja nicht mehr ist, bin ich wohl der Warhammer-Opa unserer Community mit 17 Warhammer-Spielererfahrung.
Sowas ist alles schon mal vorgekommen.
Ich erinnere mich sehr gut an ein Turnier mit Daniel Blagojevic. In der Nacht zuvor hatten wir gesoffen und gemeinsam die Liste um 4 Uhr in der Früh geschrieben. Die Liste war händisch erstellt und er hatt sich um 10 Punkte verrechnet.... (bei einer Schützeneinheit die Schilde vergessen).
Das war ein 120 Mann Turnier, Daniel (hat wie eigentlich immer) das Turnier gewonnen und wurde dann von der gesamten Münchner-Community fertig gemacht.... Er wurde auf den letzten Platz umgereiht.


Fakt ist in diesem Fall: Betreffend falscher Würfel ist ein Betrügen nicht (mehr) nachweisbar. Der pure Verdacht reicht nicht! Und damit gilt "in dubio pro reo".
Thema erledigt. Da können alle in der Zukunft lernen aber weitere öffentliche Anschuldigungen dieser Art können auch schnell als Neid und Missgunst ausgelegt werden.

Der zweite Vorwurfsfall - wissentlich oder unwissentlich falsche Liste - ist nicht ganz so einfach zu lösen.
Zum einen hat auch mich die Nachricht, dass es auf dem Turnier keine ausgedruckten Listen geben wird so spät erreicht, dass ich vergessen habe mir in der Arbeit meine Liste auszudrucken. Daheim war mein Drucker hin und so bin ich mit einer händischen Liste angerückt...
Wie mag das bei ihm gewesen sein. Mangels Sprachkenntnisse wird er die Info über die nicht bereitgestellten Listen nicht erhalten haben. Das halte ich durchaus für glaubwürdig. Zudem habe ich einiges mit ihm geplaudert und dabei kam rauß, dass er eigentlich gar nicht mit Khemri antreten wollte. Sein Freund (der, der ihm den Namen Khemrigott verpasst hat!) hat ihn wohl echt zugeredet und genötigt. Der hat ihm auch noch die Liste geschrieben und eingereicht. Vielleicht kann das von der Turnierorga bestätigt werden, dass vom Account des Freundes seine Liste abgeschickt wurde! Im worst case hat der Spieler also die Liste grad in der "Fremd-Entstehungsphase" zu sehen bekommen oder auch nicht! Auch das halte ich für glaubhaft.
Soviel zur Moral. Da finde ich genug verständliche Punkte die solche Fehlgriffe entschuldigen.
Auf der anderen Seite ändert dies nichts an den Tatsachen, nämlich dass falsch und mit zuviel Punkten gespielt wurde. Da kann die einzige Entscheidung nur sein den Titel abzuerkennen und ihn auf den letzten Platz zu revidieren.
Mein Vorschlag ist noch einen Tag Zeit zu lassen um abzuwarten ob das Angebot nicht direkt von ihm selbst kommt (hätte ich längst gemach an seiner Stelle ob schuldig oder unschuldig).

Sven

@ language issue .... a little ETC anecdote:

My Spanish opponent forgot to vanguard his Slaanesh whatever Champion.
we talked a bit and i offered that he can, but We'd have to reroll the roll for who gets the first turn. He said, no no no ....
But in the end I had to take the blame for not letting him move his unit :D.

He even had his captain translate for him...

el gungo the reason why you don't think that printed out lists would make a difference is because you don't believe that i made a mistake. I know it sounds bad, but i don't feel great either. But at the end of the day ask yourself this, suppose i cheated..why wouldn't i just ignore this thread? Why all the talking i'm just making it worse anyway. So just try to imagine for a second that i actually made a mistake (even if you don't believe me) and then put yourself in my position. Obviously you'd want to say something on your behalf, at least i think so.

Stormgarde i'm pretty sure that at that time there were only 3 models left, out of 4 which were total (3 + lord). But it changes nothing, if i have miracle dice, i wouldn't have lost the first wound, i would have blocked your psy with the hood (on a 4+) and i wouldn't have failed the pinning test.

and i still have to say that if i knew that i didn't have the damn musicians i could've adapted the playstyle so that it wouldn't make a difference. So the BSB wouldn't have mattered either?

Either way this is a thing between the Organizer, him and all his opponents.

my 2c.

The BSB at least mattered against me in that it let you reroll the failed combat reform with your Archers in the first round of combat which gave you the second rank to attack with in the following round where you caused the wound on the Bloodthirster and the missing musician and standard would have prevented the Bloodthirster from losing combat in the turn where he died due to instability.

Do you have a proposal for how to proceed?

@ibz: the reason why I don´t think it would have made a difference is because nobody would have looked at them anyway. If you were in good confidence that everything is allright and your opponent thinks the same, why go to the organizer table and request seeing the lists....

I see the only problem that the 9 mistakes summ up to about 200 points advantage. Lets say its only a mistake, it is still a major problem...

LG

Original von ibz
So the BSB wouldn't have mattered either?

It did in our game. A LOT!

ok gueskor i understand a little german, but i can't quite make out what you said. Other than the fact that you are a grandfather of the fantasy scene and that you're trying to be the mediator. but at the end of the day yes i was tired, yes i played a tournament the previous week so i only went to this one because a friend pushed me to, but with all of the above i'm not trying to say what i did was OK. Obviously not, what i did was shitty and i feel like it. But it is important to me to at least try and get you to believe that it was a mistake. That's the reason why i'm writing here. Not because i'd like you to go easy on me.

katukickek sorry i missed your post..

1. ok this is hard, because i don't really remember, but ok your griffons would be in a better position to charge into my chariots, but i woudl still have the sphynx behind them to charge you after you destroyed them? which you did anyway, so i'm pretty sure you would do it again?

2. look if you can imagine that i didn't know i didn't have the damned musicians in there i wouldn't have done it. You said it yourself it wouldn't have mattered, but i did it because i made a mistake.

3. but i could've blocked your griffons without the reform? Or try to move them with magic? but again i don't even remember you charging my skeletons?

4. picking up misses is a good idea if your ballistic is high, since there will be more hits. But i see your point and you are right.

Ruffy If i didn't get the reroll to reform and fight with your demon, i would've raised the archers so they would be in the second rank. I had to raise them a couple of times anyway.? And i can't really say how to proceed, the only thing i'm trying to do here is to show that i made a mistake. After that, i obviously have nothing to say, it's 100% your call.

elgungo i know your logic, but you're automatically assuming that i was cheating. It would have made a difference, because i would look at them. For example i have no idea why just one catapult was upgraded either, that upgrade could have easily been taken off as it's too expensive and everyone has generals + BSBs anwyay. but i'm offtopic anyway..

Pap3r I still think the chariot was left on two wounds. But it was an overrun where you'd need a 12 (we measured that one) and since it was my turn next (since i needed it to raise) i would've cast the banishment spell then, instead on the next turn?

Hol mir mal schnell das Popcorn.

Kathal

I am not talking about the first round of combat. I am talking about your turn when there were 2 chariots left in the unit and you had ONE wound left after crumbling because of the BSB which pinned me another round (my turn) and left my general unprotected in your following turn/magic phase... I know there were more wounds left after the first round when i charged.

I never talked about the first combat phase. We even talked about me being lucky there because the general would have been free and on open fields...

Original von Kathal
Hol mir mal schnell das Popcorn.

#2

Neben dem langweiligen Bürokram, sehr unterhaltsam das ganze hier :O

Tjo..... die logische Folge der Scheiss-Auf-WYSIWYG-Einstellung die quasi
schon zum guten Ton der Turnier-Szene gehört.

Würden Armeen (von der Turnierleitung oder dem Gegner natürlich auf WYSIWYG kontrolliert!!!) korrekt das darstellen müssen was sie auf dem Papier sind, gäbe es keine Musiker, Armeestandarten oder was auch immer auf dem Spielfeld für die keine Punkte bezahlt wurden und vor allem gäbe es keine derartigen Überraschungen.

Verstöße gegen WYSIWYG sind mit ersatzloser Entfernung der Einheit zu ahnden.

Aber dazu fehlen den Veranstaltern wieder die Eier, weil man sich panisch davor fürchtet mal 5 Leute (Proxy-Spieler) weniger auf dem Turnier zu sehen.

Kathal heh finally a post i don't need google translate for..

pap3r look i'm sorry things are so messed up, but i seriously do remember having 2 wounds on it but to be honest i'm pretty sure we didn't count the standard, which i think was actually there. But there's nothing i can say except that i'm sorry and that it was a mistake. The problem with talking about what happened is this: I was actually counting on you destroying those chariots, which is why i blocked your charge to everything, but the caster giant. I was counting that you would kill him (7 attacks with a reroll, wounding on a 2+ and no save, if you do at least 2 wounds and charge from the hill, he crumbles) so i would cast banishment after that like i did. If you would hide him behind the hill i would block the charge from your other units with the sphynx (we fought there afterwards anyway) and put the light caster so he's touching the hill and i would've cast banishment same was as i did. If you got the giant points (or the casket, i think i remember you telling me you would go after it) it wouldn't even change the score. But it's all theory and it's a shame i messed up because this is the part we should be discussing, not the musicians that i didn't have.

oh and el gungo, ok it's true that i had more points, but upgrades on both cats didn't matter, the musicians didn't matter and if pap3r agrees the bsb (which is 80 points) didn't matter either. But i'm NOT saying that i messed up any less.

the (non-existant) bsb also made a huge difference in our game (first game on day 1). i dont remember 100% but one , if not both of your sphinxes would have died instead of killing my whole army ....

so viele aktive besucher hatte das forum wohl lange nicht mehr

@Ultramar:

Deinen Post musste ich zwo mal lesen. Und selbst dann konnte ich den Zusammenhang zum vorliegenden Fall nicht sehen. Btw, wann war dein letztes Fantasy Turnier?

@Rest:

I think the organisator of the NÖMS will handle this issue asap. Maybe let cool it down a little bit?

take him away all the general points and let us forget it in this case.
But in the next tournament you will be observed, be sure.

greez

holger again, i have no idea, but i'm pretty sure that neither sphynxes were ever brought down to a single wound. Also they automatically crubmle one less because they are animated constructs and i'm pretty sure i did a couple of wounds here and there since you were doing break tests and eventually fled if i remember correctly (though obviously i could be wrong). So if you would do enough wounds to make it crumble (3-4), you would most likely kill it.

and codex marine, how can we just let this cool down, apparently my embarassement is quite popular? ;

My post says “i dont think that you wanted to cheat" everything elsecan´t be surely said.
But it doesn´t change anything on the fact that you played wrong and that you should drop all your victory-points for this tourney because it was not a "little" rule-mistake or something else. You played with nearly 200 points more.

That was the main message from the "grandfather",

Original von Codex Marine
@Ultramar:

Deinen Post musste ich zwo mal lesen. Und selbst dann konnte ich den Zusammenhang zum vorliegenden Fall nicht sehen. Btw, wann war dein letztes Fantasy Turnier?

Ich schon. Wenn ein Held keine AST trägt, hat er diese eben nicht. Wenn ein Regiment keinen Musiker aufstellt, hat es diesen eben nicht. Denke er meint das so. Bei 40k ist das recht gut geregelt, da muss die Armee vor dem Turnier aufgebaut werden und die Orga checkt die Modelle durch, ob diese auch passen. (AGT und Oberndorf)

Original von Gueskor
Die Liste war händisch erstellt und er hatt sich um 10 Punkte verrechnet.... (bei einer Schützeneinheit die Schilde vergessen).
Das war ein 120 Mann Turnier, Daniel (hat wie eigentlich immer) das Turnier gewonnen und wurde dann von der gesamten Münchner-Community fertig gemacht.... Er wurde auf den letzten Platz umgereiht.

Das war ein Fehler, aber nicht gleich 9 "Fehler"

Von den Würfeln redet ja niemand, ich wollte nur wissen, ob sie hier auch so gut geflogen sind.